Kroatische Poesie auf Deutsch

[Mystique]

I hope I wrote the title correctly.  

Anyway, I hope it's okay to make a topic on this subject in the German section, since the only translations of Janko Polić Kamov I've found are in German. (Sorry for writing in English, but I kinda forgot my German grammar since it's been a long time since I last spoke German.  )
Janko Polić Kamov was a Croatian modernist; he was quite a controversial author because he wrote differently than other authors in that period did, he actually rebelled against them, didn't like the way they behaved, etc. The way he crossed boundaries was with style, but what's being done today is just...pretentious vulgarity. I would say. But that's just my opinion.
So basically, here's the poem, it's a bit long-ish, but I hope you like it/read it

Eisige Unzucht

Hier lass uns sterben, Kitty, die Kraft ist aus meinen Gliedern gewichen;
kein Ausgang führt aus dem eisigen Wald und kein Weg durch die Finsternis;
zugeschneit ist alles und verschwunden darunter unsere Spuren;
niedergesunken ist mein Arm vor Erschöpfung und Frost hat meinen Gedanken befallen;
wir gehen unter, Kitty, und gierig lauert der Rachen des Todes.

Kennst du noch den Sommer und meine Gedichte?
Papier soll den Nachfahren meine Sünden erzählen, dass ihnen mein Name zum Fluch werde;
dir weinen sie nach und Tränen werden fließen, Kitty;
entweiht durch meine Verse, bist sprühende Unzucht du in meinem Buche.

Erschrocken sind deine Augen und erfroren dein Atem;
grau bist du vor Kälte und zersprungen deine Lippen;
es zittert deine Seele zur Melodie des Entsetzens;
gestorben ist die Atmosphäre und dein Lied, das sie umkreist;
es war von kurzer Dauer, nun kehrt es zu uns zurück wie der Schnee.

Hörst du meine Worte, verkommene Scheue?
lautlose Unzucht sind sie und eisig fallen sie zu dir nieder;
umschlungen von meinen Armen - o, gib mir das Flüstern des Blutes.

Sieh, finster wurde die Sonne und fahler sind ihre Strahlen;
alleine im Grauen erfrorener Münder und schwarz gähnt der gespenstische Rachen;

er ruft uns zu mit gierigem Gesang;
es wüten seine Zähne und zermalmen wollen sie unsere Gebeine.

Gib mir das Flüstern des Blutes - im Blut fließt unser Leben;
stärker als alle Wut versteht es dem tödlichen Drang zu trotzen;
o, hauche mir zu, dass wir aufspringen mögen und uns aneinander drücken;
schläfrig ist unser Blut geworden - und im Wachsein liegt unsere Rettung.

Sieh, Eis ist gefallen und unsere Gottheit liegt im Sterben;
glanzlos ist meine Mutter und tot sind ihre Lippen;
milchlos sind ihre Brüste und es sterben ihre Kinder;
eisig ist das Entsetzen und sein Strahl, der über uns hinwegzieht;
erfroren sind meine Worte und bleiern fallen sie auf uns nieder.

Wo ist dein Blut, Geliebte?
mein Nagel wird nach ihm suchen und forschen wird mein Zahn,
wie die Augen des Hungers und die Stimme der Flut.

Ertaubt bist du für meine Worte und verstummt ist deine Leidenschaft;
sag, wo ist dein Blut, Frau meiner Gedichte und Träume?
im Sterben liegst du, Liebste, und keine Glocken erklingen zu deinem Begräbnis;
erfroren ist dein Blut und zerbrochen sind deine Gebeine,
erkaltet ist mein Atem und gestorben ist der Kuss.

Die Speisen sind angerichtet, Gespenst, sie sollen dir munden,
gemeinsam ist uns der Teller, Kitty, und unsere Körper sind seine Gerichte;
getraut wurden wir, Frau - im Gedärm lass uns Hochzeit feiern;
die Heirat ist nahe und das Ehebett ist gemacht;
das Ehebett ist gemacht - und vernagelt sind seine Bretter.

Gemeinsam ist uns das Grab und kein Kreuz steht auf seinem Hügel;
gemeinsam ist uns der Sarg und die Umarmung unserer Körper;
feucht ist die Erde - oh, tote Geliebte.
Seelenlos ist unser Gerippe und der Zerfall unseres Fleisches;
Würmer sind unsere Küsse, verfault sind die bestrichenen Bretter.

Sind es Tränen, die auf’s Grab niedertropfen, und blühende Blumen?
liebkost uns die Feder des Dichters, die Wärme mitleidsvoller Jugend?
wird man je die Erdschicht durchgraben, den Deckel des Sarges aufbrechen?
findet man unsere Gebeine und ließt den letzten Vers?

Kurz war mein Leben, zu früh entstarb meine Seele;
früh war mein Tod, wie all die verfrühten Leidenschaften;
aus totem Grabe erhallt der Schrei und mahnend ist sein Klang;
er ist die Verzweiflung der Klage und das Feuer des Widerstandes.
Seht, die irrende Unzucht, die Leidenschaft des Seins;
verflucht meine Gedanken und versengt deren Flügel;
sie kriecht aus den Leichen hervor und Aufruhr ist ihr Atem;
Tot lieben unsere Körper einander und verbittert ertönt ihr Schrei.

Verwirrt war Mutter Natur und trunken, als sie gebar:
eng war mein Leben und weit, weit war meine Seele.

[Nighthawk]

The way he crossed boundaries was with style, but what's being done today is just...pretentious vulgarity. I would say. But that's just my opinion.

It, of course, depends on which poets you read. BUT. As a general rule, I kinda agree with you.

I'm of the notion that the general poetic consensus is that "vulgar = edgy". I'm a strong proponent of experimentation and the avant-garde (as well as post-modernism, but I don't mention that in civilized company ), but people tend to forget that experimentation isn't for experimentation's sake.

In their defense, it's easy to forget. You get swept away in a tide of ideas, and the goal becomes less relevant. In the end, you're shooting blanks and wondering what exactly went wrong. Or, worse, you think everything's just as it should be.

This is a bit of a digression, but post-modernism (like nihilism, another idea that tends to be misunderstood) is not a goal in itself. If it is, then it was. Past tense. Post-modernism is a means of understanding - and then evolving.

Vulgarity is a tool that can be used for effect. It's a potent spice that, if handled poorly, will destroy the meal. (Of course, "destroy" wasn't the four letter word I was looking for, but NTSMS has a no-swearing policy )

People tend to eat Vegeta like it was the main course, which leaves a bitter aftertaste.

God, this has nothing to do with Kamov

[Mystique]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the whole contemporary generation is a complete failure - I'm just talking about the present trend which likes to be followed (there are, of course, exceptions, as there were in other periods).
I don't want to sound too traditional (although, when it comes to literature, I kinda am), but there are things that are considered art and things that are considered pure profanity. I am aware that people, together with their views, change as the world itself changes; meaning, they can't always write, think, create in the same way; moreover, if they did stay the same, we'd never learn new, better (?) things.
But, there should be a line, a limit; experimenting with words and forms is one thing, but abusing them is another.


edit:

God, this has nothing to do with Kamov

+1 

[Nighthawk]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the whole contemporary generation is a complete failure - I'm just talking about the present trend which likes to be followed (there are, of course, exceptions, as there were in other periods).

I inductively assumed that's what you meant

I am aware that people, together with their views, change as the world itself changes; meaning, they can't always write, think, create in the same way; moreover, if they did stay the same, we'd never learn new, better (?) things.

There are two kinds of fool: one says 'This is old, therefore good', another says 'This is new, therefore better' (Dean Ing)

By that I mean to say that new is not necessarily better. I don't mean to imply that's what you meant (again, that's not how I understood it), but point it out as a post-worthy thought. It's a fine line we walk. Vigilance is prudent, lest we fall over.

But, there should be a line, a limit; experimenting with words and forms is one thing, but abusing them is another.

Completely agree. A point I feel important to stress: one should be careful as to what he understands as "abuse". Certain avant-garde (and by this I'm not referring to the movement, but to the idea of a vanguard approach) notions could be seen as a blatant abuse of an artistic form when, in fact, they're merely legitimate explorations hoping to push the limits of Art.

A good example is "Un Chien Andalou", a scene from which you've adapted as your avatar Abuse of the film media or legitimate exploration? I vote for the latter.

I don't want to sound too traditional (although, when it comes to literature, I kinda am), but there are things that are considered art and things that are considered pure profanity.

The problem with Art is that there's no consensus regarding what constitutes an artistic piece and differentiates it from a purely creative work.

This isn't an opinion as much as a hard truth I had to learn the hard way

If something falls over into the category of a creative work, do the same limitations apply as for Art? Needless to say, there's enough Gagas, Valents and whatnots who embrace the term "artists" just because they work in a field usually associated with Art. Sometimes a musician's just a musician, a writer's just a writer. Because of a lack of consensus, it's a bit difficult to draw the line and throw one author out and yet embrace another.

Or, do we embrace an alternative viewpoint and consider all creative endeavors Art and add a scale as to how good a particular piece is? Where do we draw the line? Do we?

Art is subjective, but it can't be that subjective.

Again, this is a bit off-topic. I'd love to talk about the subject. I've shortened this post to the point of incomprehension in order for it to be a post and not an essay If there's an interest among NTSMSers to pursue the matter further we could do a bit of moderating and throw these posts into a separate thread. What say you?

[Mystique]

But, there should be a line, a limit; experimenting with words and forms is one thing, but abusing them is another.

Completely agree. A point I feel important to stress: one should be careful as to what he understands as "abuse". Certain avant-garde (and by this I'm not referring to the movement, but to the idea of a vanguard approach) notions could be seen as a blatant abuse of an artistic form when, in fact, they're merely legitimate explorations hoping to push the limits of Art.

A good example is "Un Chien Andalou", a scene from which you've adapted as your avatar Abuse of the film media or legitimate exploration? I vote for the latter.

I do too. Surrealism is imo actually a great example of pushing the limits in a sophisticated (if I may put it like this) way. Because, it is obvious that it's not just pushing the limits for pushing-the-limits sake; there's something behind it, something that reflects the human mind (or the mind of the author/artist), something that needs analysis and yet it's hard to fully understand it (personally, I'm very fascinated by this because I love exploring this side of us, humans, and I love to see it materialized in this way)....if this makes any sense to you; this is primarily my own subjective view...so if I got too far from the subject, all apologies

Or, do we embrace an alternative viewpoint and consider all creative endeavors Art and add a scale as to how good a particular piece is? Where do we draw the line? Do we?

Art is subjective, but it can't be that subjective.

You have a point there. Today everything goes under Art. Art is a creative work of an individual, but the thing is, as you said, not all creative work should be considered art. To shorten my story, art, literature e.g. is something more than everyday colloquial expression, something more than saying "dirty words" to shock others so they'd think you're different, an artist (!), something higher than general view of things, of the world...I know many people would disagree with me, but hey, it's what I believe.

Again, this is a bit off-topic. I'd love to talk about the subject. I've shortened this post to the point of incomprehension in order for it to be a post and not an essay If there's an interest among NTSMSers to pursue the matter further we could do a bit of moderating and throw these posts into a separate thread. What say you?

I'd love to discuss it more too

[Nighthawk]

if this makes any sense to you; this is primarily my own subjective view...so if I got too far from the subject, all apologies

It makes sense and it's not far from the subject, so no worries

You have a point there. Today everything goes under Art. Art is a creative work of an individual, but the thing is, as you said, not all creative work should be considered art. To shorten my story, art, literature e.g. is something more than everyday colloquial expression, something more than saying "dirty words" to shock others so they'd think you're different, an artist (!), something higher than general view of things, of the world...I know many people would disagree with me, but hey, it's what I believe.

I offer this as a definition, the latest version born out of talks like this:

Art is a process in which skill and imagination are used in creating intellectually and emotionally stimulating experiences which strive to explain the universe, the world, existence, human existence or any element of the aforementioned.

Or just "the universe or any of the myriad elements that make it up", where "elements", of course, should not be understood as a chemical term I'd rather seem redundant than too vague.

This definition differentiates between art as a process and art as a field, where the latter is defined by the former.

Still not sure if it's a good definition. I feel like I'm missing something, but am unsure as to what. Plus, I may be forgetting something that is usually called Art, that I would perceive as such, but is not encompassed by this definition. Hmh. Worth looking in to.

Also, this definition would encompass Therion, and that's something I'd rather avoid Love 'em an' all, but don't see 'em as artists. The level of skill shown in forming these ideas and the sophistication of these ideas, in their case, don't strike me as treading into the realm of Art. Mayhap if I add "skill of the highest order"? Yeah, that's not vague

Two things:
1) Shall we concentrate on Art as such, or art in the context of just literature, just music or any other of the fields where it could be found? It seems that a general idea would be best, with examples from every field. Or every field we can think of at any given moment or deem most important

2) Art as uniform, or layered? High art/low art?

I'd love to discuss it more too

Excellent! Now we just have to grab an admin by the hand and put on our best puppy-dog faces