Author Topic: Question about Therion's Ideology  (Read 11803 times)

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Offline Lemuria19

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Question about Therion's Ideology
« on: March 27, 2009, 04:21:26 am »
I'm somewhat familiar with Therion's idea of seeking the darkness/unknown for hidden knowledge, which seems to explain many of their lyrical themes, but there is one song whose meaning I do not exactly understand.  While reading the lyrics to Black Sun, I noticed two references that are directly associated with national socialism.  The first is the black sun, which seems to be largely known as a nazi symbol, and the second is the spear of destiny, which was used by Hitler to supposedly gain power.  The fact that these two references are mentioned together in addition to hailing to victory under the black sun suggests to me a rise of national socialism and not just a coincidental placement of two occult symbols.  Can somebody explain to me how this song fits into their ideology?  I did not think Therion was national socialist or anything.

Offline Persephone

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Re: Question about Therion's Ideology
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2009, 08:46:45 am »
Hello,

I have to say that the question is kinda interesting. But nowadays there is a very big problem around all symbols abused by Nazis... simply all explaining and other articles are talking only how it was connected to the Nazi ideology.
The problem is that the same symbols were here hundreds or thousands years ago and there were no Nazis who would give them the Nazi idea :)
I mean that I would search more for the explanations of the symbol before the Nazi era :)

The Black Sun can simply be connected to solar eclipse which is often said to be a beginning of the End (something like Ragnarök - there was also a big fire to make new gods to be born as far as I remember - like in the lyrics :)  And Sorath is connected to Thagarion which is associated to Kabbalistic Tree of Life (but to it's qliphotic side). And such... :)

And Hail - it can be simply a "greeting" - we sometimes say on the forum hail to :) and none of us is a Nazi... We could say Ave the same but I guess that hail is closer to us since we know that from the lyrics, from the near history and since 2 or us come from Germany too :)
But then again, who does.

Offline Markus

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Re: Question about Therion's Ideology
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2009, 01:42:15 pm »
Hi Lemuria,

firstly: Welcome to NTSMS! :)

I don't see any valid connection between Therion lyrics and NS-ideology. A first hint is the rather frequent use of Hebrew in their lyrics. But the main argument is this: The lyrics speak of things you can achieve if you take the right decisions, do the right things - not if you are of the right blood. There is no hint of racism in their lyrics, to the contrary! But racism is an important point of NS ideology. (In fact I'm much more concerned about this "The grail is a blood-line"-conspiration-theory that Dan Brown has made popular. That one is a scary ideology if someone should take it serious!).

The spear of destiny is just an occult artefact that has fascinated many, not just Hitler, so the spear doesn't point in any concrete direction. (No pun intended. ;) )

As Mirjam already stated the black sun is clearly a symbol of Thagirion, the shadowside of Tiphareth. According to Karlsson this spiritual realm stands for self-redemption instead of redemption from outside. When one reaches Thagirion one has fulfilled one's full potential - all from oneself. But when one enters the realms above Thagirion one may become more than oneself, with the ultimate goal of godhood reached in Thaumiel. Thus the black sun of Thagirion is preparing the birth of the new god in Thaumiel.

So, the lyrics of "Black Sun" fit in very well with the rest of the lyrics, and there is no actual hint at NS-ideology - but a lot of hints that there is no racism involved with the lyrics.

Do you find my thoughts convincing?

Cheers!

Markus
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Offline Lemuria19

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Re: Question about Therion's Ideology
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2009, 08:28:14 pm »
Thanks for the feedback and the welcome.  It felt like my whole world was turned over when I first noticed those references in that song, since Therion has been one of my favorite bands for many years and I had never suspected anything NS-related.  I guess its just coincidence that one of the first songs I decide to 'investigate' seemed to slightly suggest that, so I am relieved.

Offline Markus

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Re: Question about Therion's Ideology
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2009, 11:15:37 pm »
Hi Lemuria,

this kind of doubt comes up every now and then in the Therion forums because right-wing-extremist-occultists sometimes use similar symbols or the same myths - just consider the whole complex of Nordic mythology and runes, which has been badly abused by old and new nazis. But the answer is always the same: There is not a trace of racism in Therion's lyrics.

BTW I wouldn't speak of "Therion ideology" because most band members are not really interested in this stuff. Basically it's just Chris as far as I know.

If you want to get a thorough understanding of the lyrics you might be interested in the books by Thomas Karlsson. Several of them are available in English by now. You might also be interested in the True Therion lyrics that the NTSMS research team has already unearthed. :wink2:

Cheers!

Markus
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 11:22:05 pm by Markus »
Antichrist! Antichrist!
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Offline Loke

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Re: Question about Therion's Ideology
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2009, 03:18:27 am »


  A Robert Langdon would be helpful here! hehehe welcome and ejoy .


   yo yo yo
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Offline Serpentine

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Re: Question about Therion's Ideology
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2009, 01:00:49 pm »
It felt like my whole world was turned over when I first noticed those references in that song, ...

 :) relax - those signs go waaaaaay back ( for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika ) - it's just that some things get new meanings in time.

@Markus: Now that you've mentioned it: I've been trying to find Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic by Thomas Karlsson, for few months now - does anyone know where I could find it? As far as I know it is sold out - please, if anyone knows for sure that it is available somewhere, let me know!!!
"Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are." -- Niccolo Machiavelli

"All men hear is blah, blah, blah, blah, SEX, blah, blah, blah, FOOD, blah, blah, blah, BEER." -- Dennis Leary

"And like the cat I'm stalking
I'll take your soul and You'll
Be like me
In emptiness,free

Offline Markus

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Re: Question about Therion's Ideology
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2009, 06:37:12 pm »
Sold ou, Serpi? Sorry, I wasn't aware of that. In that case I have no idea where to get a copy from. Guess you can only keep your eyes open or wait for a new edition in the worst case.

Cheers, anyway!

Markus
Antichrist! Antichrist!
Opera music therionised.
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Eager to hear you is what we are.

Offline lavaniegosII

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Re: Question about Therion's Ideology
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2009, 02:42:40 am »
Therion lyrics are so colorful and symbolic that you can´t try to understand it by a political mysticysm like NS ideology. The symbol of the Black Sun is very complex if you want to describe with objective words, but you can give mundane names with some sciences to understand it. For example, you can view it as the Unconciouss power inside the nature of human being, the inner core of the big bang explosion, the manifestation of the no-being of other realities, etc. If you want to understand a symbol, you should take attention in what it cause inside you and in the colective uncounciousness.

The association of the spear of destiny and the Black Sun is the heroe myth of the Descensus ad Inferos (descend to the underworld). For example Odhinn, whom spear caused him to enter in the realms of the other reality, due to it´s Necessity to gain wisdom and knowledge from the dark depths, and if you see the runes there is one who´s name is Naud (need and destiny), and this is the rune of Odhinn. You can associate the black sun also with the myth of Persefone, Quetzalcoatl, Amateratsu, etc.

To understand clear a therion lyric one must forget the mundane concepts of wisdom and to open your mind for all kind of possibilities and symbolism.

Black Sun - The energy from the dark realms of non existence manifested in the existence



Salud!
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Offline Serpentine

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Re: Question about Therion's Ideology
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2009, 06:05:20 pm »
@Markus: yes, I looked in Therion store, ixaxaar, amazon, ebay and dozen of other sites but they all say it is sold out ( funny thing: I saw it on one Japanese site and their reply was: book no have bye XD ). I emailed the publisher and got no reply :-\ so i hope that there will be another edition of it :-\

Lava: niiiice explanation. :thumbup:

... such things really shouldn't be observed from some political point of view. they are not related to that.
"Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are." -- Niccolo Machiavelli

"All men hear is blah, blah, blah, blah, SEX, blah, blah, blah, FOOD, blah, blah, blah, BEER." -- Dennis Leary

"And like the cat I'm stalking
I'll take your soul and You'll
Be like me
In emptiness,free

Offline saphira

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Re: Question about Therion's Ideology
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2009, 08:28:21 pm »
I agree with Lava's explanation. I couldn't say it better.  :)  :thumbup:
It can't rain all the time so put a smile on your face and proudly take another step.


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THERION - Till the day I die!

Offline Markus

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Re: Question about Therion's Ideology
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2009, 06:33:46 pm »
Hi folks,

I've discovered yet another aspect: The black sun is associated with Deggial. He is a figure from Arabian tradition, hence nothing that a nazi would be too fond of. But chiefly he is the destroyer of religion. But we can view all totalitarian regimes as a kind of (rather sick) religion:

- They depend on blind faith.
- They worship "indisputable" leaders.
- They have a black-and-white world view (no pun intended), they demonise and damn all those that don't fit into their narrow definition of "good and right".
- They try to expand their domain.
- They demand control over every aspect of life.

Hence the powers of the black sun don't promote totalitarian views but destroy them.

Cheers!

Markus
Antichrist! Antichrist!
Opera music therionised.
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Offline Aluqak

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Re: Question about Therion's Ideology
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2009, 06:41:26 pm »
Hence the powers of the black sun don't promote totalitarian views but destroy them.
I could use one or two of those. Do you know where can I buy some? :unsure:
Volons, volons, laisse toi porter par ta croyance immortelle, laisse ton désir devenir tes ailes...
Pazuzu, 1996

GOT ?

Offline Markus

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Re: Question about Therion's Ideology
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2009, 07:02:46 pm »
I could use one or two of those. Do you know where can I buy some? :unsure:

They're available at the Thagirion store. Start at Lilith and get down into Gamaliel. Make sure not to get stuck there but to continue straight to Thagirion.

Dunno if they accept credit cards, though. :unsure:

Cheers!

Markus
Antichrist! Antichrist!
Opera music therionised.
Antichrist Superstar!
Eager to hear you is what we are.

Offline Lucy

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Re: Question about Therion's Ideology
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2009, 07:55:27 pm »
:D :lol3:

Apart from the joke, I absolutely share this view. :)

Offline Aluqak

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Re: Question about Therion's Ideology
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2009, 03:30:47 pm »
They're available at the Thagirion store. Start at Lilith and get down into Gamaliel. Make sure not to get stuck there but to continue straight to Thagirion.

Dunno if they accept credit cards, though. :unsure:

Cheers!

Markus
:lol3: I had completely forgot about my post in this thread. I will take a look in that store and see if I can afford one of those without emptying my bank account.

Other than that, I also agree with the views expressed here. :thumbup:
Volons, volons, laisse toi porter par ta croyance immortelle, laisse ton désir devenir tes ailes...
Pazuzu, 1996

GOT ?