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Main Forum => About Therion => Topic started by: Markus on May 06, 2006, 11:53:45 am

Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Markus on May 06, 2006, 11:53:45 am
Hi there,

I know at least one of us speaks Hebrew, and I know at least a part of the invocation in "Dark Princess Naamah" is in that language. So... perhaps we can get a complete translation here?

The passage in question is:

Quote
Lepaca Lilith Ruach
Badad Arioth
Naamah Samalo Shed
Opun Lilith Ama
Naamah Samolo Shed
Layil Naamah Rimog
Arioth Lirochi Lilith
Lepaca Lilith Ruach
Naamah Samolo Shed
Arioth Lirochi Lilith

Any ideas?

Cheers!

Markus
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Elizabeth on May 06, 2006, 10:12:34 pm
Hey Markus!

I'll copy the fragment and try to figure it out with my dad, he speaks an excellent Hebrew.

Still, I know Lilith (or Lilit) is a ghost that appears in abandoned paintings during the night. Possible origins: Babilonian mythology, in which she had a partner named Lilo. She was "accused" of putting women in danger while giving birth and strangulating the new born babies. Also mentioned in later literature, as the "first Eva", having extraordinary seduction powers. Other books: "Isaia" and "Faust".

This is the 1st things I found out. As I told you, I'll try to find out more about tomorrow :)

Namarie!
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Markus on May 06, 2006, 10:36:47 pm
Hi Liv,

thanks a lot - I was hoping for you to take care of this. :)

What you say about Lilith fits in with what I know about her. She seems to be an arch-demoness and is often considered the mother of demons. Naamah is a related demoness, perhaps just a different aspect of Lilith. ("Demon empress, second face of Lilith") "Ruach" means "spirit" as far as I know, and "Lepaca" is clear, too. But about the rest I do need your help.

Cheers!

Markus
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: The One on May 10, 2006, 11:51:19 pm
I'll do what I can based from a few translations of other songs:
"Hail spirit of Lilith
? ?
Naamah ? ?
? Mother Lilith
Naamah ? ?
? Naamah ?
? ? Lililith
Hail spirit of Lilith
Naamah ? ?
? ? Lilith"
I know it's not much, but it's what I could do.
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Markus on May 11, 2006, 08:56:18 am
Thanks, One,

I hope that Liv will soon jump to our aid and fill the gaps. :)

Cheers!

Markus
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Elizabeth on May 11, 2006, 01:34:53 pm
I already asked my father for help, but I must catch him in a good mood and available, and it's no easy task. You know how parents are...  :ph34r:
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Elizabeth on May 11, 2006, 04:43:45 pm
Bad luck, Markus! Just talked to my dad. He looked at the sheet for a while and then decreed: "None of the words are Hebrew!" I was so shocked I began asking him about separate words "What about this one, or this one?!" The only thing he told me was that "Ruach" means "wind", which I already knew; it may refere to the Ruach Island, or the Island of the Dreams/Illusions (of the Mankind, that is).

Don't loose hope (though as I already said, my dad's an excellent Hebrew speaker; lived for a long while in Israel), I'll ask my Israeli friends :evil:
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Markus on May 11, 2006, 07:42:51 pm
Hey Liv,

first: Thanks for trying! :)

Honestly speaking, I'm not too surprised. It's not unusual for Therion to mix a number of languages, and you can't always trust the informtaion on the lyrics you find.

"Ruach", however, is most definitely Hebrew, meaning "wind" as you say, but also "breath" or "spirit" as far as I know.  "Lilith" and "Naamah" are proper names from Jewish lore. About the rest... dunno. :(

Cheers!

Markus
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Elizabeth on May 11, 2006, 08:26:30 pm
Well, I told him from the very start that some of the words are not Hebrew (ex. Lepaca), but I was expecting at least 40% of the other words to be! :(
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: The One on May 12, 2006, 02:35:27 am
Quote
Bad luck, Markus! Just talked to my dad. He looked at the sheet for a while and then decreed: "None of the words are Hebrew!" I was so shocked I began asking him about separate words "What about this one, or this one?!" The only thing he told me was that "Ruach" means "wind", which I already knew; it may refere to the Ruach Island, or the Island of the Dreams/Illusions (of the Mankind, that is).

Don't loose hope (though as I already said, my dad's an excellent Hebrew speaker; lived for a long while in Israel), I'll ask my Israeli friends :evil:
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You know, I always thought these lyrics were in Coptic, so I maybe was right... Or it's an elder version of Hebrew. This is just like a guess...
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Chris on May 19, 2006, 01:36:23 am
It's old hebrew, it's not the same like what is spoken today. Just like old greek and modern greek isn't the same language.    :smilies_weihnachten19:
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Luth on May 19, 2006, 06:58:45 am
Quote
It's old hebrew, it's not the same like what is spoken today. Just like old greek and modern greek isn't the same language.    :smilies_weihnachten19:
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After long time with our more intelligent minds guessing, we have found the wisdom!  :pop:

Very welcome here Chris  B)

PS. How can we be sure you're the real one? Mmmh... we need some spying action!  :ph34r:
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Markus on May 19, 2006, 09:56:39 am
Hi Chris,

thanks for the information! This sounds very plausible to me.

BTW, if you're the real one you can easily prove it by answering the question I PMed you. :) You'll get an appropriate member status then. (I'm sure you understand we need to be sure about this - we can't have anyone else with your name around a place like this.)

Cheers!

Markus
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: deathdancer on May 19, 2006, 12:31:40 pm
:welcomeani: Chris

@Markus, how can he check his PM when megatherion is down?
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Elizabeth on May 19, 2006, 01:38:02 pm
Maybe Markus PMed Chris in NTSMS, DD. Anyway, welcome around here, Chris :D

The old hebrew explanation sounds fair enough, since I got that startling reaction from my dad. I'm sure I'd get the same reaction from any Israeli.
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: The One on May 19, 2006, 09:35:36 pm
Welcome Chris! (if you're the real one, let me tell you I think you're the #1 musician on Earth)
See? I told you, elder hebrew... Now back to topic... Will we ever know what this all means without joining TS?
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Elizabeth on May 20, 2006, 11:14:23 am
Hmm... One? A few people around are in the TS (including Markus, the topic starter), and we still don't know what all those words mean  -_-
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: The One on May 20, 2006, 05:14:14 pm
Quote
Hmm... One? A few people around are in the TS (including Markus, the topic starter), and we still don't know what all those words mean  -_-
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:huh: Oops.. I forgot...
Well, I guess Chris will have to reveal it.
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: TheOFFman on May 21, 2006, 10:10:48 am
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:welcomeani: Chris

@Markus, how can he check his PM when megatherion is down?
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I think that you can't send PM to Chris in megatherion forum.
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Aluqak on May 23, 2006, 06:32:23 pm
Quote
BTW, if you're the real one you can easily prove it by answering the question I PMed you. :) You'll get an appropriate member status then. (I'm sure you understand we need to be sure about this - we can't have anyone else with your name around a place like this.)
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Hey Markus, does his new status mean that he answered your question correctly?
If so, Welcome Chris! :)
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Markus on May 23, 2006, 06:39:32 pm
Hi Aluqak,

I told him an "official elevenfold Welcome" in the shoutbox. :D I did so because no doubt is possible that it's him.

But let's not flood him, the man is busy and we don't want to scare him away or keep him from working on a new album.

Cheers!

Markus
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: The One on May 23, 2006, 06:47:33 pm
Quote
Hi Aluqak,

I told him an "official elevenfold Welcome" in the shoutbox. :D I did so because no doubt is possible that it's him.

But let's not flood him, the man is busy and we don't want to scare him away or keep him from working on a new album.

Cheers!

Markus
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You heard the High Priest, don't bother our NTSMS God! (Can I call hima God? Or is it just fine with NTSMS' Supreme Being?)
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Aluqak on May 23, 2006, 06:48:40 pm
Hey man,
I didn't know. I was away for the weekend, and I missed that part (yes, the shoutbox has that problem).... and I was so surprised to see him here today, that I just have to shout he was here... Anyway, no problem from my side, I'm not that kind of fan. If he wanna share with us that's great.
Title: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Markus on May 23, 2006, 07:01:13 pm
That's alright, Aluqak,

probably he's aware that this is the Dark Side of the Therion Community. Sort of Na'atesh-Omash being the qlipha of Megatherion. :evil:

Don't expect him to be around too often, though. He's a rare guest even on the official forum...

Cheers!

Markus
Title: Re: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Lucy on August 06, 2006, 10:49:40 am
Finally, our "translation":

Lepaca - "hail" or "open", because as I read on the pages of the Dragon Rouge, Lilith is a gate, too
Lilith Ruach - maybe "the spirit's gate"
Badad - "isolation, withdrawal, separation", or "alone"
Arioth - "lion" or "picture, image of a lion"
Naamah - literally "pleasant", as a person, she's the sister of Lilith as you can read in the Definitions
Samalo or Samolo - we found "s'mal" which means "left, left hand, left side" and "Samael" angel of death
Shed - no idea  :mad3:
Opun - "wheel"
Am - "mother"
Layil - "night"
Rimog - no idea  :tongue:
Lirochi - no idea again :mad:

Well, that's all.
Title: Re: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Markus on August 09, 2006, 09:56:31 am
Hey Lucy,

thank you so much for the good work! :)

Cheers!

Markus
Title: Re: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Lucy on August 09, 2006, 11:36:15 am
Well, it's not enough good - but it was interesting working on it with my husband. We enjoyed your homework  :)
Title: Re: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: The One on August 11, 2006, 06:20:17 pm
So to this point we have:

Hail to the sprit of Lilith (Or open the gate of the spirit)
Separation of the Lion (or picture) (Or the lion alone)
Naamah the (or the pleasant) left hand (or side) of ?
The wheel of Mother Lilith
Naamah the (or the pleasant) left hand (or side) of ?
The night of Naamah ? (Or Naamah in the night of ?)(?!)
The lion ? Lilith (or ? the gate)
Hail to the sprit of Lilith (Or open the gate of the spirit)
Naamah the (or the pleasant) left hand (or side) of ?
The lion ? Lilith (or ? the gate)

Pretty confusing  :disgust:
Anyways, Lucy, awesome job, where did you find all this stuff? :thumbup:
Title: Re: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Lucy on August 11, 2006, 06:42:20 pm
It was my husband to lend me a hand by translating some words. He learnt Hebrew and Greek. But he couldn't translate all of the words - the text with Hebrew letters was missing, or the dictionary was incomplete. Anyway, the work and thinking of it aren't finished yet  :)
Title: Re: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Lucy on August 12, 2006, 08:25:50 am
I have an idea. What if the words are not connected grammatically, I mean we shouldn't look for correct sentences. The whole thing reminds me the Indian mantras or the catholic litanias. Words, put together, but not without sense. Watch for example that in almost all of the rows there are one or two names of female persons. (Sure. That's why this is an invocation  :wacko: If you call somebody's name many times, it will appear - as Capra did!  :lol:) Maybe it's one of the secret chants of our High Priest  :pop:  :)
Title: Re: Lepaca Lilith
Post by: Markus on August 12, 2006, 09:59:25 am
Hi Lucy,

yup, I bet grammar is an important point! There must be some grammatic hints in the original text - words standing in certain cases, for instance. Otherwise the text is either badly written, or it it is supposed to be nothing but a row of mainly independent words. Perhaps all the possible meanings are intended.

Cheers!

Markus